‫So let's talk about this.
‫This Docker arm thing normal.
‫What's your take.
‫I think it's a great move on both companies parts.
‫I think it's a good move for the community in general arm and the acceleration of IO T and non ex 86
‫chipsets especially as it goes to more of infrastructure server roles.
‫It has been accelerating tremendously in the last I would say five years.
‫You know the oftentimes as as technologists and hobby hobbyists and smart home hackers we we usually
‫touch arm in the Raspberry Pi kind of world in the hobby electronics world.
‫However one might not know that ARM processors are essentially in a lot of the hardware devices that
‫are at the core of network infrastructure wireless infrastructure mobile devices.
‫You know every piece of hardware in your car in your in your fridge your washing machine wherever.
‫Right.
‫And so this announcement kind of opens up the world of dev ops and all the advances in efficiencies
‫that the traditional dev ops software development world has been gaining advantages in because of Docker
‫and container containers.
‫It opens up the the this new hardware world to that.
‫And one of the biggest gaps as someone who has done some hardware hacking in the past has worked on
‫hardware projects at work doing that loop of development and testing on hardware at the edge has been
‫its pi.
‫The biggest gap in the market right now and I think this announcement is is kind of twofold one is aimed
‫at closing that gap making it easier to develop on those hardware platforms and then also as ARM processors
‫are going to the server market making it.
‫So just like Docker solves that problem for dev ops it solves that problem going from hardware to be
‫able to write code just normal software development code in on the server space.
‫Right.
‫And there's some joint announcements around eight of us having a dedicated arm instances and AC two
‫and I think there's a lot of advantages there.
‫And I'll leave I'll leave some space for Mike to comment on it but I've some follow up there as well.
‫You basically took it all.
‫Jeez.
‫I mean we're leaving you with back and reinvent Adobe was announcing the arm easy to instances and everything
‫and you just see a dramatic price reduction there too.
‫I admit I looked at it like how can I take advantage of these to start saving some money on my servers
‫and everything and so now I'm making this much easier and more importantly officially supported means
‫for building containers and everything and I'm excited to see where it goes I mean I haven't done a
‫lot in the IOC space but I definitely see how now it's going to be much more accessible to be able to
‫write in again open up the UPS pipelines and everything like Naren was talking about.
‫Yeah.
‫And how we can we can start talking at these i o t conferences and arm conferences and I think there's
‫gonna be an uptick honestly of around the hardware side and it's a world where I don't I don't know
‫if there's a lot of cross in in between our industries right.
‫We have the typical distribute application developers folks that are migrating legacy apps trying to
‫figure out the cloud future.
‫There's other worlds out there automotive industrial IO T Mobile even the VRA are in game gaming world
‫and they're at various stages of this dev ops journey.
‫And I think this just opens up that world to to the new way of doing things that the cloud world has
‫kind of gone accustomed to Yeah.
‫Yeah I think you know us x eighty six peoples which is essentially all the laptops.
‫You know if you're on a laptop or a desktop machine you're watching this on an Intel processor most
‫likely.
‫And we sort of have the spoils of of all the features and all the great software and arm has traditionally
‫been a place where it's because the processors were so tiny they're focused on battery and efficiency
‫that they always they that they haven't been number one right there hasn't been the place where all
‫of that great stuff is.
‫But I think I think for me largely due to the smartphone decade that we've had that has really changed
‫a lot because ALM has been around a while.
‫They're not necessarily new.
‫And you know in case you didn't know arm for the audience arm is arm doesn't the company doesn't actually
‫make a processor.
‫I had to learn this recently.
‫They they licensed their licensing and consulting and an expertise company but they don't make the silicon
‫themselves which is a really interesting model it's the opposite model of Intel so I was watching yesterday
‫after the announcement from Docker I was watching and there's a YouTube video on arm from Azure it's
‫actually from Microsoft's a few YouTube around you can probably find that video and it's one of the
‫guys that helped build a data centers or is in charge of data centers talking about their data center
‫designs.
‫And the interesting position for him was it wasn't even about savings in terms of energy or whatever.
‫For them it was a matter of vendor choice that they right now.
‫If you think about it they're all these data centers in the world.
‫They're running next 86 there.
‫They basically have two vendor choices you know a M.D. and Intel and that is they're sort of the linchpin
‫of their entire company to build to build these data centers.
‫So for them ALM allows them to then I think Microsoft was saying they had at least three different chip
‫manufacturers that they had partnered with to make ARM chips for their datacenter.
‫So now they look at this as like a diversity play of being able to have all the different options in
‫case something happens that one vendor or one set of chips is delayed or something that they can move
‫something around.
‫And for those of us that are on on scripting languages like P2P no J.S. Ruby Perl in those sorts of
‫things from my point of view if you're talking about cloud infrastructure that's not French the same
‫way on arm that it runs on intel right.
‫Nowadays we just kind of do a docker pull on those images and those all just run in fact from my checking
‫all the official images I looked at all have arm counterparts in fact let's just take a look at that.
‫Let's go look at the No.1 real quick.
‫I think what you're kind of pulling up on is that Docker has had the ability to run on ARM processors
‫for a little while now.
‫I think it's I think Justin was mentioning that just in-car comment is mentioning that it's been like
‫couple of years where there have been arm based images this announcement of makes it more production
‫ready.
‫There's a commitment there from both sides and you know there's still some issues there.
‫It's not a first class citizen yet.
‫And now it is going to be and there's past the kind of hello world kind of examples you do get some
‫gotchas.
‫And the other part of this is in my in my view point is when you're talking about these different hardware
‫platforms often you're also talking about chips that are communicating to other pieces of hardware that
‫might be unique over USP cereal some other interfaces and interconnecting those into containers.
‫So can get a little tricky these days and when you're talking about a GP use and several connections
‫and hardware level timing and robotics more more work still needs to be done on the darker world to
‫be able to support that.
‫But this announcement is kind of an opening of hey we're taking this seriously and yes we're going to
‫work.
‫Keep working on improving how Docker runs on these platforms so it's even easier in the future to develop
‫against your custom hardware.
‫Yeah.
‫I'm excited to see kind of how this folds in with orchestration everything.
‫I mean imagine opening up a docker e environment and going to you CPE and centre I want to deploy these
‫containers across my C device fleet or whatever so it'll be interesting to see where this evolves where
‫this goes in the future.
‫Yeah yeah.
‫A lot of this works today.
‫I mean that's what's the announcement I think someone announced you can tell like you know industry
‫analyst analysts aren't engineers usually.
‫And so when they're putting titles up against Tech Crunch Docker developers can now build arm containers
‫on your desktops.
‫That title actually would have been the same title like three years ago you could have done that three
‫years ago.
‫Nothing has changed.
‫I think Dockers basically going to meet their goal is to eventually make it easier.
‫You were saying the pass smoother from dev test to prod.
‫But if you go into this just look at the node image for example there's this whole list of architectures
‫where you can do Docker run node on any of these platforms we're talking old arm 32 bit ARM the latest
‫arm V8 32 bit X 86 which is i3 86 PPC which is I don't know was using that anymore and then I think
‫s S3 90 X is a mainframe chip.
‫So actually funny story When Docker con Copenhagen so a year and a half ago now kind of did a little
‫hackathon with a couple of the other captains there and I was playing around with making an alternative
‫a swarm visualise and we had it working with both Andy 64 and arm and on the S3 96 and windows and so
‫produced one node and that can run on four different architectures.
‫And it was kind of fun to say you know this app will run on both arm and IBM mainframe and I've never
‫even touched a mainframe in my life right.
‫I work on it it's just what I mean really cool.
‫What does it mean.
‫Yeah yeah.
‫This DCP will still work on a mainframe I don't know.
‫Yeah yeah I know it's I mean that's I think one of the big goals that I always got out of Docker early
‫on was you know not only making it easy to run any app the same way with the same commands but they're
‫also making any architecture able to run the same thing with the same command.
‫So the goal eventually and it's not all complete like the whole path manifest files and all these different
‫things multi arches not all completely smooth that but we're really far I think down the road of you
‫being able to build an app it be on multiple processor architectures at the same time it's one code
‫base and you store it in one repo on the Internet and you pull it you pull it based on your decision
‫so then people think well multi arch why I really care.
‫I usually know what architecture I want to use and sort of the example that I give is like you might
‫want something like on a no JSF you might want some of that architecture to run in the cloud.
‫And up until recently if you want eight of us or Azure you had to run it on x 86 like you did not have
‫an arm processor to run it on.
‫So if you're going to test and see eye and do all that sort of stuff on your code before you shipped
‫it out to maybe your IO T devices you had you didn't have a lot of choices for running it on raw bare
‫metal arm stuff.
‫Right.
‫So it was nice to have all these images and be able to test them and then just basically change the
‫from image to a different architecture and then your code is built into a new image that's kind of how
‫I was talking about it but now now that we have like eight of us is a one instances.
‫So if you weren't if you weren't aware from the Amazons conference the most recent one they NWS announced
‫that they have they they're making their own silicon just like Microsoft and they have these A1 instances
‫that start with A1 mediums and work their way up.
‫And what's crazy is like right out of the box they have 10 gigabit.
‫So sixteen dollars a month for a single AMD processor but it's got 10 gigabit networking so all I can
‫think about is like if I've got a network bandwidth things like that's where I'm putting it is on and
‫it's dramatically reduced in price compared to the six versions too.
‫So yeah yeah yeah I think that's that's where a lot of that lies.
‫I think there's going to be cost advantages.
‫Power consumption advantages bandwidth it's also on a trend overall of you know custom silicon and custom
‫hardware especially as we start to go into machine learning A.I..
‫A lot of companies are going to start baking their algorithms and making their own hardware in their
‫own silicon specialize toward very specific machine learning algorithms spaceship specific type of applications
‫and developing against those is typically been a really big challenge to make your own compilers you
‫have to make sure that you're developing environments of the same.
‫I think these announcements are kind of the first baby steps toward opening up advances in in not just
‫you Intel X 86 centric development across the board.
‫Yeah yeah it's gonna it's gonna be what I mean ideally a few years from now we'll have the situation
‫where we maybe are ready here for a lot of people but for the US normal people it's gonna be this decision
‫of what is the let me test on a different architectures and let me see which ones the most energy efficient
‫or better or you know cost effective for my performance that needs that I have and I'm just gonna choose
‫that and it doesn't.
‫It's an interesting world because for the longest time in fact one of the things I wanted to bring up
‫about this topic was
‫the founder of Linux Linus a couple of months ago when I think it was after the ADA U.S. announcement
‫he basically came out and was it was gonna play a video.
‫Yeah.
‫He was really it was I thought was a very interesting discussion I was having we was basically saying
‫just because ALM exists doesn't mean that it's going to be like this major player the bit let's all
‫look back at the reason that X 86 became so successful and his argument was around everyone having this
‫commodity hardware that was the same processor architecture type as in production so that they could
‫just play locally tests locally then run it on a server somewhere and that was the real one of the big
‫secrets to the success and that arm doesn't have that yet.
‫So when I read this I think that this should be turned around now and there should be a new so much
‫that needs to write a blog post that basically says Linus is right and Docker and arm together are going
‫to be the bet most likely successful way we're going to solve this problem yeah.
‫And I don't I don't know if it's you know the use case of like server side doesn't necessarily talk
‫about power consumption or cost.
‫You know we kind of.
‫Yes to an extent.
‫Commodities.
‫But once you start going away from servers and you start to interact with devices and the cloud and
‫multiple architectures and GP use it that's a different story completely.
‫Like Linus is right about a specific area which is kind of commodity software development and commodity
‫applications.
‫But the minute you start venturing off that farm that that territory it's it gets it's a little bit
‫harder and it's not there yet.
‫And so that being said though I think Almond is a lot in a lot of places and we touch it every day and
‫does that mean that it's a good thing that it's hidden.
‫Probably not.
‫I mean if it's I mean for every x 86 chip how many arm chips are there you know that are running.
‫I don't know.
‫Right I'm sure there's a multiplication there are a multiple there.
‫Yeah.
‫So yeah I forgot how many how many.
‫They hadn't announced but something about the billions of how many billions of it was I and I hesitate
‫to call because I pride misquote but it was something like from the start of arm as a company till the
‫two thousand somewhere they made like 50 billion chips and then the next four years they made 50 billion
‫chips so and then the next like three years they made 50 billion chips or something like that.
‫And so it's essentially almost I want to say exponential but it looks like an exponential amount of
‫chips are made.
‫I think that's going to change anytime soon you know.
‫And traditionally those chips have been found in hardware devices not necessarily on the server themselves
‫but you know what's not a server these days.
‫Right.
‫Oh right.
‫I mean yeah.
‫To me it means like if you're going to if you're interested in doing something like let's say you want
‫to make a custom you know situation on arm like maybe you're not just a node programmer but you're a
‫little a low level programmer like traditionally you'd have to go get you know you have to go get a
‫Raspberry Pi and then figure out how to develop an ad or you have to buy an arm laptop and then you
‫have to deal with the limitations of that for development.
‫So yeah.
‫So I've got these like I don't know if you can see that I got these little development boards.
‫I don't know.
‫I don't think they are.
‫Maybe they are.
‫I'm not sure.
‫But you know there's a full stack server on this on this little thing.
‫It's the same thing that's in the Amazon Dash button essentially.
‫Okay.
‫And it's got you know it's got FTB it's got a web server.
‫It's I mean what's not a server.
‫You know I made my toaster eventually is going to have a server on it for no reason.
‫I mean right.
‫It probably already does.
‫If you get one with like an LCD panel on it it's probably got a little arm chip just to just to power
‫that on their website they say one hundred and thirty billion chips more.
‫More than 130 billion.
‫There's only seven billion people on the planet right.
‫So more than 70 percent of the world's population are using ARM technology sensors to smartphones to
‫supercomputers.
‫Yeah.
‫So I think it's really cool.
‫I'm excited how easy it is it's almost so easy that the demos kind of like OK cool I'm running arm so
‫you know you're on Tucker desktop.
‫So if you're if you're just running or desktop you can run arm code right now you can just either specify
‫the platform in your Docker run command or you can just specify the image that is arm based.
‫And it just runs and it's using that because of QM you if you're not familiar with that
‫cue EMU dot org it's in a processor emulator essentially.
‫But think of it like virtualization the same way that it works the same way the virtualization does.
‫And it just allows it's been around a while it's not a docker thing Docker just bundles it into Docker
‫desktop by default.
‫And that's what we've been all talking about.
‫So if you go on what's crazy if you go into YouTube right now and you just search like Raspberry Pi
‫Docker or armed Docker or something like that you'll find three up to five years worth of videos of
‫people demoing how this all stuff all this stuff works.
‫So one of that one of the challenges with this announcement yesterday is it's it's here like surprise.
‫You've had it for five years.
‫It just works like you don't need to wait for the next release.
‫You don't need to wait for Dr. Khan.
‫What what that announcement to me was really about was what we learned was like Docker e is going to
‫come to arm right like there's going to be official doctor support for the arm instead of it just works.
‫It'll be well you can actually call us for support with this kind of thing that you know.
‫Yeah the developer workflow experience is going to get better hopefully we'll have easier dealing with
‫a multiple arch images and all that stuff and news will be announced.
‫Dr. Khan next week too I mean a whole new slew of tools and stuff coming.
‫Yeah yeah.
‫In fact even just if you think about it for a second just Dr. compose and of itself being able to run
‫Ducker compose up on my machine and if I'm on macro win as a doctor desktop.
‫What that means is I could have one of those service services running containers in there be an arm
‫based one and then other ones that are X 86 all in the same network all talking to each other testing
‫apps locally on different architecture types seamlessly like it's just it's kind of like what a world
‫do we live in kind of thing.
‫I think it's cool because it also opens up the world for things like unique kernels which have also
‫traditionally been difficult to kind of work with but have a lot of advantages.
‫And I'm not a unique kernel expert but this is kind of along that path to getting to some more advanced
‫ways of communicating with hardware it's more advanced kernels more secure.
‫Right.
‫So another thing that isn't really part of the announcement but you know your darker images come with
‫the ability to be cryptic graphically signed and a big challenge when you're talking about hardware
‫is cryptographic signing what's running on on hardware.
‫And and that becomes more and more important as we start to do more and more processing at the edge.
‫And it's also the same things that we can do today on servers on a new processor architecture that that
‫that might not have those advantages at X 86 have from the dev ops world but now do so before we hear.
‫I mean how often do we hear of this these camera systems got hacked and all this kind of all that stuff.
‫Yeah.
‫I think I think I think it happens more than we realize.
‫We hear a lot of news and we're like yeah.
‫But I think you know there's a lot of devices in fact.
‫What's interesting is to see devices coming out now like the Google Home which specifically markets
‫as not having a camera in it so that it can't be hacked so that your privacy is protected by not having
‫a camera in your living room whatever.
‫I just recently got a Google home and it's essentially a little tablet with a speaker built in that
‫runs Android and it has lots of things in it.
‫But one thing it doesn't have is a camera because of that that very we've all been trained.
‫Now that thing with a sensor Internet access in my house is potentially hackable and you're right a
‫docker I mean it to me it's like if the app gets hacked the OS can still replace that container much
‫easier than you would have to like flash the firmware on a device to get rid of the hack.
‫Right.
‫So the whole remediation seems a lot easier than me assuming that they didn't break out of the container
‫and all that obviously there's always those risks.
‫But.